Detroit Electric/Proton.....Lotus ?

[clockwork]

It looks as if the Proton people have set up a company in America to market their own electric cars,using standard Proton models and installing an electric drive train,they also show a video of an Elise and an electrified Elise having a head to head round a deserted Silverstone to show how quick it is.My thoughts are,do Lotus get anything out of this? are Tesla happy ? have Proton done something on their own doorstep? link to vid http://detroit-electric.co.uk/ Clockwork :)

[WayneB]

Well as Proton is Lotuses owner I would imagine they would have to develop whatever vehicles Proton tell them to,be they gasoline powered or electric.

I would assume that Tesla would have no recourse against Lotus as long as any of the Tesla specific technology is not used on the Lotus engineered Proton(or Dodge)electric vehicles unless they license the patents (If there are any) or get prior permission from Tesla.

Of course I would think by now after engineering the Tesla Roadster, Lotus are quite ahead of the game at developing these new electric car packages and quite a few other car manufacturers besides those already mentioned are colaborating with Lotus ATM.

As for the track test video, the Electric Elise is clearly faster than the gasoline powered one over one lap of Silverstone, but my question would be how long could that car sustain that level of performance? (in terms of battery range at that level of power consumption)

[Martin]

Interesting, I hope this doesn't equate to them shooting themselves in the foot.

[WayneB]

I dont think so, Lotus do a lot of engineering for other car manufacturers without apparent conflict, I dont see the electric car stuff as being any different myself.

[eurosport]

:tt2: Pfft on Tesla. They can get on with their overpriced, niche-vehicle celebrity schlock while Elon Musk pads his pockets and whines for handouts all-the-while throwing money at a space program. Lotus were playing with their S1 electric Elise before Paypal could even figure out how to process a credit card. I suspect Lotus can get on just fine without Tesla's "patents" continuing to directly or indirectly develop electric and semi-electric vehicles for the masses. :steeringwheel: I think it will be fun to watch a slew of practical, affordable, and sporty electric vehicles come on the market while the resale value of that $100k Tesla nose-dives by half or more. :yes:

[WayneB]

On thing that I find interesting is where is all the electricity going to come from to power these legions of electric cars?

Isn't California's hydro electric grid at capacity ATM.

I sure hope it doesnt mean more nuclear reactors .:crying:

[eurosport]

Right! How're you gonna charge your Tesla during rolling blackouts??:nono: And everybody acts like you can just plug your car in at work. :nono: How many businesses are going to let everybody and their dog plug in their electrics on the business' meter for nuthin'?? I saw a picture once of a Tesla plugged in at their parking garage, I'm sure that didn't last. I can see it, coin or card-driven meters are going to spring up everywhere so people can plug in their electrics. Wait! Everyone forget I said that! I need to invent these!! :shifty:

[Esprit2]

One thing that I find interesting is where is all the electricity going to come from (Snip)...
That's the key point that's being overlooked in all the enthusiasm over electric cars. Where is the electricity going to come from?

Electric vehicles are not emissions free, they just shift the point of emissions from one place to another. In many parts of the country, electric power is produced in coal fired plants, and coal is a major contributor of greenhouse gases.

In addition, the USA is way behind in maintaining it's energy infrastructure. We've not kept up with building new power plants, and the distribution grid is largely antiquated and overloaded. If the demand for transportation fuel shifts from petroleum to electricity, the natiion's power grid is not prepared for the additional load.

A few electric cars are valuable as an experiment in practicality, and a Tesla here and there isn't going to make a noticeable difference in electrical demand. But if the auto industry jumps on electric vehicles as the easy answer to green-transportation or petroleum independence prior to the electric infrastructure being bolstered to handle the increased load, then the easy answer to petroleum-free green cars will not be an answer at all.

The answer needs to come in the correct order. If the country doesn't first pick up the ball on clean electric power generation & distribution, then the country isn't ready for mass market electric vehicles. All else that follows is just wishful thinking.

There's a lot of enthusiasm out there for electirc power vehicles, mixed with equal amounts of stupidity. The simple answer to "Where does the electric power come from", is not, "Well, from the plug, of course".

Regards,
Tim Engel

[Autocross7]

That's the key point that's being overlooked in all the enthusiasm over electric cars. Where is the electricity going to come from?

Electric vehicles are not emissions free, they just shift the point of emissions from one place to another. In many parts of the country, electric power is produced in coal fired plants, and coal is a major contributor of greenhouse gases.

In addition, the USA is way behind in maintaining it's energy infrastructure. We've not kept up with building new power plants, and the distribution grid is largely antiquated and overloaded. If the demand for transportation fuel shifts from petroleum to electricity, the natiion's power grid is not prepared for the additional load.

Regards,
Tim Engel


Strange how so many people do not get your first points here at all. The power does come from someplace, and since Tesla was not successful at getting the "straight out of the sky" electricity plan put into place, the power plant still does it. Not so surprising is that most of us "car nuts" (whatever your favorite make) do seem to understand more about this stuff than the rest of the folks out there...

As far as the 2nd point above, I would like to amend it to state that the USA, and in fact the EPA, is directly responsible for the "fall behind". This not a politically motivated statement, so please nobody take it that way... I state this simply as fact. I have done some study work for the State of Alabama and it is truley baffling at what the Feds and the EPA come up with to stop clean power or shift clean power to other venues. The fact is that electric car and anything else will not be anymore viable than the other whizmo ghizmo stuff out there until an infrastructure is allowed to be build - and built free of pork lobby contracting and other more mundane show stoppers. E85 is a great example of fluff and stuff marketing. Case and point... IRL! It is simply a very poor performer and provides very little return while shifting the problem to other related areas. :huh:

Now we have E85 to get rid of too! :mad:

Cameron

[WayneB]

I'm thinking along the lines of Tim and Cameron, whilst I'm not dead set against electric cars (on the contary I am very interested in the technology), their "fuel" (electricity) has to be generated by some viable means and I seriously doubt a few windmills will solve that problem.

Also I can't realistically see OPEC walking away from this one without a fight, they will reduce the price of gasoline to make it a much more attractive fuel If electric transportation ever becomes enough of a threat to eat into their bottom line.

So ATM electric cars seem to be only attractive to wealthy "green wannabee's" who like to appear be on the edge of the up and coming fashions and trends.

The real green hard core environmentalists preffered mode of transportation is a donkey.:)

http://www.lolcars.com/images/donkey-car.jpg

[Autocross7]

Hahaha! Great photo! But... even that emits gas...really bad gas! hahaha...


Cameron

[Esprit2]

Hahaha! Great photo! But... even that emits gas...really bad gas! hahaha...
Cameron,

It's both humorous and serious. There aren't a lot of burros in the US, but there are large dairy and beef cattle operations and their methane emissions have been identified as a significant contributor to greenhouse gas. Enough that research is being done on feed and management to reduce emissions.

Not that dray animals will ever be a good horsepower solution for modern society, but they wouldn't be a good green solution either. Not unless you figure out how to put a cork in the right place and collect the methane for fuel. That's a career opportunity I'd probably pass on.

Regards,
Tim Engel

[Andy B]

You are all correct, until we can produce enough electricity cleanly the all electric car is a ways off. Having said that FOR WORK I'd buy a plug in tomorrow but not if I were just swapping a gas bill for a hydro bill.

Of course all this just makes Toyota and Honda's hybrids and soon to be plug-in hybrids a smart move.

And who knows Lotus is already nicely in bed with Toyota who lead in this area, perhaps a joint venture is in the cards.

[Autocross7]

Of course all this just makes Toyota and Honda's hybrids and soon to be plug-in hybrids a smart move.

That will never be a smart move IMO. The damage caused by the hybrid car design is absolutley unreal by contrast with a regular gas burning vehicle. As Tim points out, when you look beyond the MPG (in and of itself not without exageration by the green teams selling them), the source and disposal of the parts is devestating.


Here is a decent article pitting the 'California Green Guy' hated Hummer against the Prius...

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

... to quote Paul Harvey.... "and that is the rest of the story".

Cameron

[Andy B]

That will never be a smart move IMO. The damage caused by the hybrid car design is absolutley unreal by contrast with a regular gas burning vehicle. As Tim points out, when you look beyond the MPG (in and of itself not without exageration by the green teams selling them), the source and disposal of the parts is devestating.


Here is a decent article pitting the 'California Green Guy' hated Hummer against the Prius...

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

... to quote Paul Harvey.... "and that is the rest of the story".

Cameron

Look again Cameron.
Mr Chris Demorro of the Recorder should hand in his pencil case right now as I'm sure he is not using a word processor, most of his "facts" come from a time long ago.
He sites Inco in Sudbury a nickel plant which produce the nickel for the NiMh hybrid batteries and states they massively pollute the surrounding environment. This is nothing more than a myth based on one nickel plant which was polluting long before hybrids were even invented and has since cleaned up its act.
In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.

The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism."

Mr Demorro also drones on about "old EPA estimates of the Prius's gas mileage being 25% over actual" well the same has been discovered about all the EPA estimates and that would include the Hummer.

And then you have to swallow his estimate of the vehicles longevity, c'mon a GM outlasting a Toyota 3 to 1. The public have already voted on that one and the score is GM bankrupt Toyota thriving.
When and if Mr Demorro eventually graduates I'm sure he has a great future as a fiction writer.

[Autocross7]

There is always Norilsk... :ohmy: As far as Toyota and Nissan... they are really catching up to GM at alarming speed these days. I worry a bit that Lotus is using a Toyota motor to be honest. Toyota has been covering up and denying a design flaw in a couple of their motors that cause (or lead to) oil sludging. There is a monster class action pending against them and many dealers are getting hit independently outside of that suit in the USA (like Palmer Toyota here in Mobile). Nissan is not far behind as they have had many issues with valve guides week stems in the past few years. I have no idea about Hummer and would not personally own one, but if GM did anything right it was trucks. They should prob. stop making cars and make only trucks for a while? But I think I mght have accidentally gotten off track... the idea I put fourth and was trying to back is that the inferstructure simply is not there and even when it gets there (if), it will prob. not be free of lobby workers influence...

Cameron

[clockwork]

Well ,our UK gov.have just announced that they will pay "up to" £5000 Pounds towards an electric car that has yet to be built, re-chargeable from a socket that has yet to be installed,why ? on several levels it seems an odd move,as a cynical consumer the car company will adjust the price to take the £5000 into account,on another level the jury is still out on weather it is "greener" to own a car that has kept on the road for thirty years or a new technology car that might have a short life,it is a problem that does not need a knee jerk reaction policy,maybe it`s me,I just can`t see the Kings new clothes.Clockwork:001_unsure: